Curse

nighthawk329 · Nov 24, 2007, 09:28 PM // 21:28

[skill]"The Power is Yours!"[/skill]

If you use it at full energy, you will probably be drained in seconds. If you use it at 10 energy, you will have no energy for 10 whole seconds, unable to help your party at all, except for maybe spamming GftE or spear skills.

All this for 7 energy? Now compare it to:

[skill]"Never Give Up!"[/skill]

Non-elite, gives more energy (8 as opposed to 7), Half the energy cost, no energy degeneration, affects allies as well, same recharge. The 75% requirement is only minor, considering the fact that your teammates are only going to truly need the energy if they are below 75% (especially monks). If the whole party is full health, then the party is obviously not in any immediate danger of dying, so they can afford to wait a few seconds and regen energy.

What's the point?

zwei2stein · Nov 24, 2007, 09:43 PM // 21:43

<75% req is not minor at all. it requires you to play intentionally badly to get most of it, or play well and waste skillslot on useless skill. besides, if you party spends enough time with monks <75% and needing energy to make it worth skillslot, your monk are very, very bad

If you want to help monks, help them to do thier job:

[skill]"Stand Your Ground!"[/skill], [skill]Defensive Anthem[/skill]

Marverick · Nov 24, 2007, 11:27 PM // 23:27

It's actually quite useable in PvE, really. -10 energy degen gives you -8 total, which is 26 energy total. Don't forget you gain 8 energy from it too, and with +7 from Leadership that's +5 net. [skill]Leader's Zeal[/skill] will give you +7 energy, and any adrenaline shout will give you another +7 with 14 Leadership, so you only lose 7 energy in all. You can use [skill]Blazing Spear[/skill][skill]Glowing Signet[/skill] for more so in effect you won't lose any energy. It's recharge is exactly the same as TPIY so they work quite well together.

iridescentfyre · Nov 25, 2007, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

It's actually quite useable in PvE, really. -10 energy degen gives you -8 total, which is 26 energy total. Don't forget you gain 8 energy from it too, and with +7 from Leadership that's +5 net. [skill]Leader's Zeal[/skill] will give you +7 energy, and any adrenaline shout will give you another +7 with 14 Leadership, so you only lose 7 energy in all. You can use [skill]Blazing Spear[/skill][skill]Glowing Signet[/skill] for more so in effect you won't lose any energy. It's recharge is exactly the same as TPIY so they work quite well together.

So in other words, devote half (or more) of your skill bar to try to do something sub-par compared to a battery Necromancer, and "The Power Is Yours!" actually starts to look like a decent skill.

nighthawk329 · Nov 25, 2007, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Except thats 4-5 skills just so that you can keep your energy up to give 7 energy to your party every 20 seconds. Kind of a big trade-off, imo

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

<75% req is not minor at all. it requires you to play intentionally badly to get most of it, or play well and waste skillslot on useless skill. besides, if you party spends enough time with monks <75% and needing energy to make it worth skillslot, your monk are very, very bad

If you want to help monks, help them to do thier job:

[skill]"Stand Your Ground!"[/skill], [skill]Defensive Anthem[/skill]

You aren't playing intentionally badly so that you can use this skill. If there is enough hex/condition pressure (especially in HM), the 75% requirement becomes trivial.

And if you're saying monks that can't constantly keep everyone over 75% without energy problems are "bad", then you obviously don't understand the monk profession.

And don't even bring other skills into this. I'm not saying that Never Give Up is a good skill; it just looks good compared to TPiY.

zwei2stein · Nov 25, 2007, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by nighthawk329

Except thats 4-5 skills just so that you can keep your energy up to give 7 energy to your party every 20 seconds. Kind of a big trade-off, imo

You aren't playing intentionally badly so that you can use this skill. If there is enough hex/condition pressure (especially in HM), the 75% requirement becomes trivial.

And if you're saying monks that can't constantly keep everyone over 75% without energy problems are "bad", then you obviously don't understand the monk profession.

And don't even bring other skills into this. I'm not saying that Never Give Up is a good skill; it just looks good compared to TPiY.

a) you are forgetting that whole party gets energy. its not giving up ~26e for 7, you are trading ~26 energy for 56 energy. unconditional., big difference.
b) You dont really need energy yourself.

---

I aint saying that monk should never let person slip to low health, but if it hapens enough that stuff like NGU becomes useable, you have problems.

You see, as monk, you are not really in job of putting red bars to max, you are preventing then from going down.

Moreover, if your monk needs energy injections of any kind and people get to low healths, hes overhealing and/or not proting. 99% of reason that BiP build is viable is because people just are too inept to manage their energy.

Racthoh · Nov 25, 2007, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Well Never Give Up! is in Command, and Command is kinda... bad. All of the decent Command skills revolve around having physicals, and most people don't use physicals, they use casters. In which case you'd just be better off using Motivation for all of the wonderful goodies it has to offer for casters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nighthawk329

You aren't playing intentionally badly so that you can use this skill. If there is enough hex/condition pressure (especially in HM), the 75% requirement becomes trivial.

Most of the areas that come to mind where there is heavy pressure from degen it's mostly just that. In which case, a party heal is generally enough with a few spot heals on whoever is under the focus of wand pressure. If you are expecting party wide degen consistantly enough that it may pose a problem you should be carrying additional party heals to deal with those situations. That or adequate hex/condition removal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iridescentfyre

So in other words, devote half (or more) of your skill bar to try to do something sub-par compared to a battery Necromancer

What kind of battery Necromancer are we talking about here? Those 1 health BiP necros that don't do anything useful, that you bring along for players who don't know how to manage their energy? Or the useful necromancer who specs a little into blood for a Blood Ritual for those occasions where things go sour?

Quote:

Originally Posted by iridescentfyre

and "The Power Is Yours!" actually starts to look like a decent skill.

I ran a The Power Is Yours! bar for a while, it's good support and as a paragon there is still plenty you can do for the party without any energy (adrenaline is a wonderful thing eh?). But once There's Nothing To Fear! was introduced, I dumped the build onto a hero.

Was something like this:

Aggressive Refrain
Go For The Eyes!
The Power Is Yours! {E}
Aria of Zeal
Lyric of Zeal/Anthem of Flame (depending on party makeup)
Wild Throw
Spear of Lightning/Merciless Spear (depending on party makeup)
Signet of Return

Kyp Jade · Nov 25, 2007, 11:20 AM // 11:20

The Power is yours is kinda bad imo, never give up has potential to fit on my bar however as degen in some areas brings me down, also the lacerate from my own ranger hero can backfire at times as well, but its worth it (degen is armor ignoring so its ftw).

But I probably wont since I have mending refrain on my Spoil Victor necro and thats generally enough with well of blood to live through degen. (i keep that up by spaming they're on fire and save yourselves)

nighthawk329 · Nov 25, 2007, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Well Never Give Up! is in Command, and Command is kinda... bad. All of the decent Command skills revolve around having physicals, and most people don't use physicals, they use casters. In which case you'd just be better off using Motivation for all of the wonderful goodies it has to offer for casters.

I know Motivation has very nice support for casters (Aria of Zeal, etc.), but so does command. Stand your Ground is a great skill. GftE is still phenomenal, especially with a MM. Since when do parties not have any physical...

Quote:

Most of the areas that come to mind where there is heavy pressure from degen it's mostly just that. In which case, a party heal is generally enough with a few spot heals on whoever is under the focus of wand pressure. If you are expecting party wide degen consistantly enough that it may pose a problem you should be carrying additional party heals to deal with those situations. That or adequate hex/condition removal.

Again, I'm not suggesting Never Give Up as a solution to pressure or monk e-management woes. Obviously a single HP is going to solve degen pressure. I'm just saying that TPiY is a useless waste of a skill slot, especially in these situations, since you can just bring Never Give Up and bring a better elite.[/QUOTE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

a) you are forgetting that whole party gets energy. its not giving up ~26e for 7, you are trading ~26 energy for 56 energy. unconditional., big difference.
b) You dont really need energy yourself.

Sure you can say that you don't really need energy...if all you will be doing is spamming GftE and attacking. There are a lot of good support skills that need energy, like you said: [skill]defensive anthem[/skill], [skill]"stand your ground!"[/skill], [skill]"there's nothing to fear!"[/skill].

ghostlyfenix · Dec 10, 2007, 03:24 AM // 03:24

best defence is offence , switch these fail elites for something more worthwhile like cruel spear or something

Terraban · Dec 10, 2007, 04:27 PM // 16:27

After reading this description, I think that the point of this skill is to give energy to your teammates.

Jessica The Mesmer · Dec 10, 2007, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

After reading this description, I think that the point of this skill is to give energy to your teammates.

lol...I belive that they know that...but the question was the scarifice fo the skill really worth it? IMO there are other elites that would be more effective.

wazz · Dec 10, 2007, 04:56 PM // 16:56

IMO I think it is meant to be used along spear attacks/adraline based shouts/signets.
It role is supposly more ha/gvg like oriented
and to be used along spikes who are verry energy needing.

the problem with never give up: for it to affect people who actually needed ( being monks/eles/...) they have to get below 75%.
If the ones in need are getting below 75% your tank is supposly down or the lure went totally wrong.

the only place I see it of decent use would be with ursans.... *runs for cover*

so my point ;
never give up --> if you get to use it effectivly your pretty owned already might turn the tides though who knows...
the power is yours--> can't find a way to use it in pve but it might come in handy in pvp to be able to ful the spikes better. Call it a safty margine of some sort when it comes to energy manegement.

yh I never HA/gvged in my life :-p

Terraban · Dec 10, 2007, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Well...

TPiY vs. BR
With the energy degeneration, you lose 33.3333 energy.
The cost of the skill is actually negated, and you gain energy.
So let's just say that you lose 30 energy from the whole thing.
With an 8 person team, you give 7 people 8 energy, which is 56 energy.
You give 56 energy and lose 30, which is a 88% party-wide profit.

With Blood Ritual, also at 14 spec, with an enchanting mod
You spend 10 energy, and the person gains 17 energy.
This is only a 70% gain. While also taking at minimum 15 seconds to cast on all party members like TPiY, and a total of 119% health sacrifice.

This is somewhat countered by the fact that Warriors don't usually need help with energy, but it never hurts.

However, a BR necromancer would have to be 100% dedicated to running around BR'ing people to almost match the efficiency of TPiY.

With TPiY, a Paragon can still be dishing out decent DPS while also supplying energy for the team.

TPiY vs. BiP
No contest really...energy wise anyway.

88% profit from TPiY.
380% profit from BiP.

However, because of the huge health sacrifice from BiP, it is usually built around, and that is ALL that the necromancer does, with no damage contribution at all.

Edit:
When it comes to just keeping 1-2 characters with energy, the Monks for instance, then yeah, BR and BiP are significantly better.

Turbobusa · Dec 10, 2007, 05:44 PM // 17:44

In your calculations you assumed that every affected member needs that energy, when most of the time 3-4 would need it.
And if everyone is above 75% I don't see why you would need that energy gain.
If your <75% never give up...

So unless never give up is nerfed, I don't see any reason to run that.

Terraban · Dec 10, 2007, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

In your calculations you assumed that every affected member needs that energy, when most of the time 3-4 would need it.
And if everyone is above 75% I don't see why you would need that energy gain.
If your <75% never give up...

So unless never give up is nerfed, I don't see any reason to run that.

Needing energy is different than being 8 energy from full.

If a monk is 30/50 energy, they don't "need" it as such, but them suddenly becoming 38/50 is not a bad thing. Energy management before you are out of energy is also important.

I'm sure an Elementalist with 50/80 energy wouldn't mind a free 8 energy.

At any given time, I would say that almost always the majority of your team doesn't have max energy.

Not having max energy =/= being below 75% health.

Edit: Not saying it is a great skill, but it could possibly be used.

wazz · Dec 10, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

hmm I'll say it again :
I don't think TPiY is meant for pve but for pvp
and although I never ever have played HA/gvg I don't think you can use a bip in it but you still need energy so TPiY looks like a decent alternative.

ensoriki · Dec 10, 2007, 06:46 PM // 18:46

If your an adrenaline Paragon, There is no problem with the Power is yours and I'd love for you to bring it if your not using energy.

Also consider -10 is 10 energy ever 3 seconds,
around 3 energy a second.

It cost 10 energy, its a shout right so you get +7 or 8 energy back.

so from 30 energy you went to 22, and then you still have time to cast 2/3 5 energy skills, and if they are chants then you won't even reach 0 energy,

The power of yours IMO is not a bad elite.
Its bad if your not synergizing the rest of your build with it.

An Adrenaline Paragon Will barely care that he just used the Power is yours, all he knows is he just helped his team.

Though personally, it would be much better if the Energy given out to the team is higher

but 7 energy x 7 members is 42 energy just dished out.
If they buffed that to x....11..13 you'd be doing 11x7

77 energy dished out.

zwei2stein · Dec 10, 2007, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

.
However, because of the huge health sacrifice from BiP, it is usually built around, and that is ALL that the necromancer does, with no damage contribution at all..

Bad bip, sure, good bip can contribute with orders and stuff like aegis.

Thou, "good bip" is kinda strange thing to say.

John Panda · Dec 11, 2007, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Me/P with support signets i'll post the build when i get to my house O: